The Association for Human Rights and Solidarity fort he Oppressed (MAZLUMDER) Chairman Atty. Kaya Kartal made very important evaluations to our newspaper regarding the problems experienced in our country based on justice. Expressing the basic judicial problems in Turkey, Kartal said that no one trusts the existing judicial mechanism. He noted that even the judges do not believe in justice. Kaya Kartal, who answered our questions regarding the decree laws and the victims of February 28, stated that there were great grievances in these two issues.
Justice is one of the most discussed and talked about issue in our country. In this context, what would you like to say about the influence of justice in our country?
Justice is a concept with very wide repercussions. Justice is the opposite of oppression. Although it is utopian to ensure absolute justice by the hands of people, it is possible to establish justice in the best way possible. This is what our struggle is about. This is the fundamental claim of the human rights idea, to create an opportunity to prevent persecution. Issues that we will call many examples of problems, from the treatment in police stations or prisons to the judicial issues, from the legal regulations to the social response... MAZLUMDER is also an institution that works to solve these problems.
What is the most common violation of rights you encounter? May I ask you to list a few titles...
There are two very big fundamental problems in Turkey right now. The first is the problem of fair trial. This is not the problem of today, of course. This is an ongoing situation even when we look at it from the point of view of the history of the Republic. We have seen that there has been a fair trial problem for years. When we look at it today, there are serious problems especially in terms of impartiality and independence. This situation threatens everyone. The current system is of such a nature that it will terribly harm others, regardless of who is in power. We see that the victims of the previous era become the oppressors of the next era. Secondly, with the density of refugees in Turkey, especially together with this, the problems faced by refugees have reached excruciating proportions. We see that they are disadvantaged in every sense. The right to life should not be seen as just surviving, but we should also understand living with dignity from this concept. Many refugees do not enjoy their right to a dignified life.
At this point, do you think that necessary structural steps can be taken to protect the dignity of refugees and a healthy environment is provided?
Unfortunately, despite some efforts, a healthy environment could not be provided. Unfortunately, it does not happen because this issue has a serious economic aspect, on the other hand, there has been a very serious influx of refugees to Turkey. I think we are one of the countries that accept the most refugees in the world. The rulers did not make a sound planning from the very beginning. Over time, the issue of refugees became a political issue. There are situations that amount to racism. Everyone, from the government to the opposition, has a serious responsibility. We have certain obligations, with people. We are interlocutors after all.
If we turn around a hundred people randomly on the street, I think we will see that ninety-eight of these people have a weakness in their belief in justice. What can be done at this point, how can faith in justice be ensured?
I will go further. This is also the case for judges. Such a mechanism has emerged that no one can rely on the existing judicial order. Everyone is complaining about this situation, but everyone wants the judiciary to be carved towards them. However, we should desire justice to be established properly. Even a person who has been punished must believe that he has been judged honestly. Even the judges today do not believe in justice. Even the most vicious criminal must be tried fairly. According to our belief, if there are ninety-nine guilty and one innocent people on a ship, you cannot sink that ship. We have come to such a point that we are beheading ninety-nine people for one criminal. We saw this in the decree-laws during the state of emergency. Who will be held accountable for human suffering?
If we add a sociological perspective to the work, what could be the consequences of a state of depression that is the current situation in the society?
When the law does not work properly, people take different paths. First, people seek to claim their own rights. This is why violence is so common. The re-emergence of mafia organizations shows this. People who do not think that the judicial mechanism will establish the necessary justice, turn to these ways. There are also people who cannot do this and are driven to suicide. Again, a brain drain can occur. No one will benefit from using the current judiciary as a stick. Maybe it can contribute to the power in the short run, but it causes social problems in the long run.
As we have seen throughout the history of the Republic, there is a revanchist outlook in our country. Is it possible to prevent this situation?
This is definitely a situation that must be prevented, otherwise we will not be able to get out of this grip. Judgement is a very important weapon. We saw this in the February 28 period, as well as in the parallel judicial period. This revanchist view in the form of revolving harms the situation. Legislature, executive and judiciary must be in a certain balance. The Constitutional Court must do its job properly. A serious balance and control mechanism should be established. Otherwise, if we enter into such a psychology that who takes power in his hands, we will not be able to get rid of this pressure. Thousands of people fall victim to the revanchist attitude.
We are perhaps one of the countries that make the most legal reforms in the world. Despite this, we also see that the judicial mechanism is not functioning properly. What do you think we are missing? Why not succeed?
We see that the main issue is not the texts. You can enforce even the worst law without persecution by fair enforcers. If there are bad lawyers and bad judges, the situation causes a big crisis because the laws are bad. The Justice Department is trying to fix this, but the text isn't the issue. Of course, the texts need to be changed, but as long as the mentality of seeing the judgment as a stick continues, no matter how much you change the texts, these problems will still continue. Another point is that; the current stock of judges and prosecutors is not at the level we would like. I'm not just talking about a lack of knowledge. Judges and prosecutors should be formed who have the idea of right and justice, do not submit to authority, and care about their independence and impartiality. Or existing judges and prosecutors should be brought to this awareness. Judges and prosecutors should not be made over the signals that will come from the political will over political identities through partisanship. The judge is not the state's lawyer.
I would like to know your views on two issues in particular; the first one is the issue of the people with the decree laws and the other one is the 28 February cases...
We have seen issues that take us back twenty years regarding the Decree Law. We have prepared a report on the issue of Decree Law. Each case must be approached individually. A process cannot be carried out with the logic that I create bag files to label them and it will take them three or five years until they acquit themselves. The essence of our perception of law is innocence. We have seen in this process that, as the President has also declared, threw the baby out with the bathwater. The members of the Decree-Law have turned to such a system and unfortunately this situation cannot be stopped. Serious grievances arose with the decree laws. Another problem is that there are individuals who cannot return to work even though they have been cleared.
What would you say about the victims of February 28? There are still people who are in jail after years. There is great suffering...
February 28 is a very important wound for us and it still continues to bleed. In this period, there was a briefed trial. The judiciary was not operated independently, trials were held in line with the Kemalist ideology. As a result of these trials, the issues that could be considered as freedom of thought were evaluated under the label of terrorism. Although some evictions took place during the process, there are still unsolved files. We think there are over a hundred prisoners. Again, there are victims within the scope of the Sivas case.